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Post by janebse on May 17, 2006 16:10:25 GMT -5
Weaky, I agree with you. We have no way of knowing what the Tempts did to keep Eddie there.
However, I believe his leaving was not a matter of not agreeing with Motown, Gordy, or anyone else. We are forgetting that in the entertainment, athletic, political, and probably every other field, there are these "yes" men. They are hangers-on who tell you how wonderful you are, how much better you are than anyone else, how you are the "star" of the team, that everyone else is living off you.
Unfortunately the person involved all too often does not listen to the truth or look for the truth. He hears only what he wants to hear and disregards everyone and every bit of evidence that what he wants to hear is not the truth. In the 1800's one person wanted to be president. One politician who visited him said he had never seen anyone so possessed by the fever to be president. The politician told him he was supporting someone else. After the visit the person who wanted to be president ignored what the politician had told him and told everyone that he had convinced the politician to support him. He ignored all evidence and believed everyone was supporting him. Yet he was a good man. Would he have been a good president? I doubt it. He was pretty blind to the truth.
In the entertainment field you often have these people who have had little in their lives suddenly adored by the public and making millions of dollars.
Otis was the one with the best business sense. He knew that the company has to make money, or no one makes money. He could look around and see that they had it better than people who went to other record companies or started their own. H-D-H may blame Motown and Gordy, but the people who worked for them when they formed their own record company say H-D-H did not know how to run a business. Norman Whitfield started his own record company which went kaput. A few years ago Norman was sued for non-payment of income tax, and he was getting over a million dollars a year from guess what...the records he made with Motown.
I know that Eddie's mother did not want him to leave the Temptations, although after he did, she did what mothers always do and just accepted it, and probably blamed any problems he had on the Temptations or Motown.
A group breaking up after 10 years seems to be pretty normal. I know...the Four Tops even though Levi and Lawrence did not speak to each other for 20 years. Levi has said repeatedly that he is not a singer; he is a shouter. I think Levi knew that his voice was better suited with a group surrounding him than to be a solo singer. Very few of us have the wisdom to recognize and accept what we can do well and do it. I think Levi was smart enough to accept it, and perhaps the rest of the Tops felt the same way.
As for Eddie, in 1986, he said he'd like to go back to the Temptations. Yes, he actually said it. But, being human, he wanted everyone to sort of beg him to come back. As Madonna said, she wanted her husband to admit he was wrong when they had an argument. I personally think Eddie was best in a group. I don't think his personality was suited to being a soloist. I don't mean his singing; I mean the outgoing personality that is required. I think he was rather shy and insecure. I have tapes of his performing alone, and he's really shy. He never was the speaker for the group; it was always Melvin or Paul. He never was the one who talked to Berry; it was always Otis.
Remember when Suzanne Sommers was convinced she was essential to THREE'S A COMPANY and demanded more money, then quit when she didn't get it. She was not essential. Remember when McLean Stevenson was convinced he was the star of MASH. Not only was he not the star, but Harry Morgan who replaced him was much better.
We all learn the hard way that we may not be indispensable. Are there people who are indispensable? Oh,yes. But usually it's a person who is doing all the nitty gritty work, and we don't even think about them.
We all love Eddie; we wished he had stayed. I think he wished he had stayed. But I don't know how you can stop people from making mistakes. They seem determined to do so.
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Beej
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Post by Beej on Sept 21, 2007 21:37:03 GMT -5
We all love Eddie; we wished he had stayed. I think he wished he had stayed. But I don't know how you can stop people from making mistakes. They seem determined to do so. I guess I'm a bit puzzled, Jane, by your characterization of Eddie's solo career as a "mistake." Are you projecting your own wishes and hopes here or do you believe Eddie's career would've somehow been more successful had he stayed with the Temptations? As it is, he was quite successful on his own...and created an impressive catalog of outstanding music that would've never been possible had he remained with the group. It's really a moot point, though. Eddie's reasons for leaving went beyond simply wanting to spread his wings and diversify as an artist. He did what was right for him...both personally and professionally...and it turned out pretty well. Like he said, he gave everything he had to the Tempts for 10 years; he had nothing else to give. Both he and David were entirely too ambitious and too talented to continue working within the confines of a group...even the best group. Unlike David, however, Eddie left on his own terms. There's no doubt in my mind that David would've done the same by then had he gotten the chance. When you're that creative and that proficient as an artist, you have to go it alone and make your own way at some point. Simply being one of five is no longer personally fulfilling. By The Temptations Wish It Would Rain, the group appeared to be repeating itself. Whether that was the result of Norman Whitfield reaching a creative crossroad or the fact that the Tempts had produced SO MUCH quality material in 1967, it seemed a change of some sort was needed to get them moving forward again. And, of course, change is exactly what happened...across the board: personnel, wardrobe, material, image, production, etc. I suppose it's natural to look at the C5 and wish there could've been at least four or five more years of those harmonies and that on stage magic, but I look at it from a different perspective. Had David Ruffin and Eddie Kendricks stayed with the Temptations, we wouldn't have all the great solo material they produced in the years immediately following their respective departures. In my mind -- and many others' -- the period from '69-'71 contained the greatest vocals David ever recorded. For Eddie, remaining with the Tempts another five years would mean losing his first three solo albums and the biggest hit of his career. It's hard for me to see that as a bad decision or "mistake' on his part. Personally, I love the Classic Tempts as much as anyone, but I'm thrilled they left. We have two outstanding and creatively diverse solo careers to enjoy as a result...in addition to four years worth of brilliant and memorable C5 material.
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Post by Weak4Weeks on Jan 12, 2009 8:38:27 GMT -5
Weaky, I agree with you. We have no way of knowing what the Tempts did to keep Eddie there. However, I believe his leaving was not a matter of not agreeing with Motown, Gordy, or anyone else. We are forgetting that in the entertainment, athletic, political, and probably every other field, there are these "yes" men. They are hangers-on who tell you how wonderful you are, how much better you are than anyone else, how you are the "star" of the team, that everyone else is living off you. Unfortunately the person involved all too often does not listen to the truth or look for the truth. He hears only what he wants to hear and disregards everyone and every bit of evidence that what he wants to hear is not the truth. In the 1800's one person wanted to be president. One politician who visited him said he had never seen anyone so possessed by the fever to be president. The politician told him he was supporting someone else. After the visit the person who wanted to be president ignored what the politician had told him and told everyone that he had convinced the politician to support him. He ignored all evidence and believed everyone was supporting him. Yet he was a good man. Would he have been a good president? I doubt it. He was pretty blind to the truth. In the entertainment field you often have these people who have had little in their lives suddenly adored by the public and making millions of dollars. Otis was the one with the best business sense. He knew that the company has to make money, or no one makes money. He could look around and see that they had it better than people who went to other record companies or started their own. H-D-H may blame Motown and Gordy, but the people who worked for them when they formed their own record company say H-D-H did not know how to run a business. Norman Whitfield started his own record company which went kaput. A few years ago Norman was sued for non-payment of income tax, and he was getting over a million dollars a year from guess what...the records he made with Motown. I know that Eddie's mother did not want him to leave the Temptations, although after he did, she did what mothers always do and just accepted it, and probably blamed any problems he had on the Temptations or Motown. A group breaking up after 10 years seems to be pretty normal. I know...the Four Tops even though Levi and Lawrence did not speak to each other for 20 years. Levi has said repeatedly that he is not a singer; he is a shouter. I think Levi knew that his voice was better suited with a group surrounding him than to be a solo singer. Very few of us have the wisdom to recognize and accept what we can do well and do it. I think Levi was smart enough to accept it, and perhaps the rest of the Tops felt the same way. As for Eddie, in 1986, he said he'd like to go back to the Temptations. Yes, he actually said it. But, being human, he wanted everyone to sort of beg him to come back. As Madonna said, she wanted her husband to admit he was wrong when they had an argument. I personally think Eddie was best in a group. I don't think his personality was suited to being a soloist. I don't mean his singing; I mean the outgoing personality that is required. I think he was rather shy and insecure. I have tapes of his performing alone, and he's really shy. He never was the speaker for the group; it was always Melvin or Paul. He never was the one who talked to Berry; it was always Otis. Remember when Suzanne Sommers was convinced she was essential to THREE'S A COMPANY and demanded more money, then quit when she didn't get it. She was not essential. Remember when McLean Stevenson was convinced he was the star of MASH. Not only was he not the star, but Harry Morgan who replaced him was much better. We all learn the hard way that we may not be indispensable. Are there people who are indispensable? Oh,yes. But usually it's a person who is doing all the nitty gritty work, and we don't even think about them. We all love Eddie; we wished he had stayed. I think he wished he had stayed. But I don't know how you can stop people from making mistakes. They seem determined to do so. Wow. I can NOT believe I missed this post. I never knew Eddie said he wanted to come back to the Tempts in 1986. Of course no one was going to BEG him back. He had already been gone for 15 years and the group was chugging along. I definitely feel like he regretted his decision to leave. Eddie K, had the sweetest voice and the Tempts have never again had a tenor like him. But yes men, can cause folks to think they are indespensable.
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Post by janebse on Jan 14, 2009 21:52:54 GMT -5
On the first Anniversary of the Beatles; LOVE at Mirage, Paul, Ringo and the wives of John and George came to the show as a sort of celebration of one year. Most of the time Paul and Ringo were interviewed together, and then the wives appeared more briefly.
I am going to comment on the remarks of Paul and Ringo. Paul looked tired. He was in the last stages of his divorce, and I guess no matter how much money you may have,you sure hate to lose millions of it to someone you think just married you to get it. However, Ringo was really upbeat. When the reporter asked him how he was, Ringo replied, "GREAT! I am GREAT!" And you could see confidence and enthusiasm. If you see interviews in the 1960's Ringo was shy and quiet. But it was a remark Paul made that meant so much to me. He turned to Ringo and said, "We really were a great band, weren't we?" The reporter said something about Ringo and the drummer being an important part of the band. And Paul answered, "Yes, Ringo was an essential part of the band. We always wanted Ringo to come into the band." We felt he was the best drummer." And they, Paul, Ringo and the reporter discussed drumming. Then the reporter asked a question. It was Paul's response to that question that I felt was significant. Paul said, "We were all good musicians. But together we were GREAT!"
Of course, it took many years for them to realize that.
I think the same thing applies to the Temptations. They were all good singers. But together they were GREAT! Unfortunately, they had about the same time as the Beatles together, ten years, before friction tore them apart. I think in his book Otis makes the same kind of comment that Paul did. Together they were GREAT! unique.
ANd I think Otis has the same kind of moments that Paul has, moments of joy for what they once had and moments of regret that it did not last forever.
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Beej
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...after you've been... been SO good to me...
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Post by Beej on Mar 3, 2009 3:30:55 GMT -5
ANd I think Otis has the same kind of moments that Paul has, moments of joy for what they once had and moments of regret that it did not last forever. Yep. Like the old saying goes: "Time heals all wounds." But it also helps you see the foolishness of your youth. As intense, contentious and bitter as the internal squabbles may have been in the days leading up to the respective departures of both David and Eddie, I get the sense Otis would give just about anything right now to go back and do it all over again. In the heat of the moment, it's pretty easy to let egos and personal grudges get in the way of understanding and common sense. We're all guilty of it. Forty years removed, though, Otis has probably thought through the group's decision to give David the boot a million times in his head. Commercially, the addition of Dennis Edwards was a great success...no question. But you can hear it in his voice when he talks about the C5; that combination of artists and personalities was something very special to him...something that, despite the underlying turmoil at the time, he looks back on with a certain affinity and longing. Suddenly, all those arguments and personal battles don't seem so important anymore. The one thing that rises above all else in his mind is the magic they created and shared when David, Eddie, Paul, Melvin and he stepped onstage together. It must be tough to be the only one left -- the only one who truly knows what it was like -- and realize those days are gone forever.
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Post by Weak4Weeks on Mar 7, 2009 7:47:17 GMT -5
ANd I think Otis has the same kind of moments that Paul has, moments of joy for what they once had and moments of regret that it did not last forever. Yep. Like the old saying goes: "Time heals all wounds." But it also helps you see the foolishness of your youth. As intense, contentious and bitter as the internal squabbles may have been in the days leading up to the respective departures of both David and Eddie, I get the sense Otis would give just about anything right now to go back and do it all over again. In the heat of the moment, it's pretty easy to let egos and personal grudges get in the way of understanding and common sense. We're all guilty of it. Forty years removed, though, Otis has probably thought through the group's decision to give David the boot a million times in his head. Commercially, the addition of Dennis Edwards was a great success...no question. But you can hear it in his voice when he talks about the C5; that combination of artists and personalities was something very special to him...something that, despite the underlying turmoil at the time, he looks back on with a certain affinity and longing. Suddenly, all those arguments and personal battles don't seem so important anymore. The one thing that rises above all else in his mind is the magic they created and shared when David, Eddie, Paul, Melvin and he stepped onstage together. It must be tough to be the only one left -- the only one who truly knows what it was like -- and realize those days are gone forever. HIYA BEEJ. Can I just say GREAT to read you again! Back with my replies.
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Post by janebse on Mar 7, 2009 17:01:33 GMT -5
i had read the article above plus many more about "the reasons Eddie left." I loved Eddie; everyone loved Eddie. No one wanted any of the classic Five to leave. But psychologists say about 10 years is as long as people stay together in a group, no matter what kind of group it is---music, scientific, business, etc. I know someone will immediately bring up the Four Tops. But Lawrence and Levi did not speak to each other for the last 20-25 years. The BeeGees remained together, but they did part for a few years before they realized they were really brothers, and being brothers meant something else.
No matter what excuses we or they give---egoes, business---it just seems to be a part of life. And of course, the Beatles are a famous example. They never seem to realize that the group is what is important, not the individual.
To me, the interesting thing about The Beatles, The Temptations, and even The Tops, is that one never escapes being a Beatle, a Tempt or a Top. The Four Tops, at least, realized they made more money together than separate.
For all of their lives, the Temptations are recognized and identified as Temptations. No matter that Eddie had some successful songs after he left, he was always a "former Temptation." And he used that title himself when the years got tough. And we know that Dennis still thrives on the title.
And the Beatles are even now realizing a new way to "play with the Beatles."
Last year Paul McCartney said, "We were all good musicians. But together we were great."
It just takes people a long while to realize that when certain people get together, they can create something so wonderful and so unique the whole world loves it. It doesn't always happen, but when it does, we all delight in it.
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Post by janebse on Mar 7, 2009 17:10:29 GMT -5
Beej,
Somehow I missed the point where you wonder if my saying Eddie's solo career was a mistake was a projection of my own views/wishes that he had remained with the Temptations.
Although I think your statement is an astute observation and I do certainly wish he had remained, it was not the reason that I think his going solo was a mistake. That observation came from watching him on his own, through both DVD's and tapes when he is performing solo. He did not have the confidence a solo performer needs. He always seemed shy and hesitant. It was painful to watch him perform. Now that was not so obvious when one just heard him sing on a CD or record. The producer of the record can correct those problems. But watching him in person or on film, it is obvious.
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Beej
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...after you've been... been SO good to me...
Posts: 104
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Post by Beej on Mar 11, 2009 0:46:34 GMT -5
Hi, Weaky...
It's nice to be back.
Hi, Janebse...
Understood. I got the impression from your earlier post that you felt Eddie's decision to leave was ultimately a commercial or career mistake on his part that he would later regret. Obviously, the former is debatable, but I look at the body of work Eddie Kendricks produced from 1971-78 and it's hard for me to question or criticize his decision to venture out on his own.
He was riding high for a good portion of the '70s and able to produce the music he wanted to make. It's hard to argue against creative freedom and commercial success. As an artist, either is welcome. When the two go hand in hand, it's the best of both worlds. By the '80s, though, Eddie's music had been (unfairly) lumped in with disco and his voice was quickly leaving him.
It's the question of whether he truly wanted to leave The Temptations that remains unanswered. Unfortunately, Eddie was not definitive in his answer.
At one time, he was adamant that he had done all he could with the Tempts and his reasons for leaving were too numerous to pinpoint any particular cause for his general unhappiness with the group. At another time, Eddie claimed he didn't really want to leave, but Motown would not allow him to put out a solo album while a member of the Tempts; forced to choose, he elected to go solo. Yet, another time, he stated he had contemplated leaving the Tempts as early as 1965 because he didn't like the way the group was being managed or, in his mind, mishandled and abused by Motown.
I never saw him say that he regretted leaving the group, however. Eddie was the kind of guy who made a decision, stood by it and never looked back. By his own admission, the Reunion tour was a great reminder of why he left in the first place. As Eddie explained, not much had changed in the years since he'd left. The politics within the group and between the group and the label were still the same.
With respect to his onstage demeanor, I'm not sure Eddie was ever truly comfortable out front...not even with The Temptations. He always came across very rigid and fidgety. Paul and David had a certain confidence and easiness with the crowd that Eddie -- for all his talent and charm -- never really seemed to master. I think that's why his performances as a solo artist were generally less about structure than about creating an informal, almost party, atmosphere. On audio, it comes across as sloppy and disorganized, but his shows were probably very enjoyable for those in attendance.
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