Beej
Full Member
...after you've been... been SO good to me...
Posts: 104
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Post by Beej on Feb 4, 2006 20:30:48 GMT -5
"Second, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, Dennis did have a stronger voice than David or any of the other Temptations, now being more soulful is a matter of opinion."You're not from NYC by any chance, are you? You're stating your own opinion...nothing more. There's no quantitative analysis or comparison you can cite to substantiate your claim. If you're not familiar with the entire catalog of David Ruffin's solo work -- and it's apparent that you aren't -- then you really have no basis to make a valid comparison at all. "I never said that Dennis wasn't a real Temptation. I said he's from the CLASSIC period. Let's try this again, the CLASSIC PERIOD."Yes, let's try this again... - The ORIGINAL Temptations were: Otis, Al, Eddie, Paul & Melvin - The CLASSIC Temptations were: Otis, David, Eddie, Paul & Melvin - The HOF 6 Temptations are: Otis, David, Eddie, Paul, Melvin & Dennis - The Psychadelic Soul or "Message Music" Era is NOT part of the Classic EraThese terms are not interchangeable. They are accepted and used by Tempts' fans everywhere as references to specific eras or lineups in the group's history. Just because you choose to mix them together and make up new names does not mean others are wrong or not paying attention to what you're saying. If you'd use the proper terms, it wouldn't be so confusing to the reader. "Hate it or love it, the classic 6 was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. No such thing as the classic 6, right Why don't you tell that to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame."Those members in the Hall of Fame are called the "HOF 6." There's no such term as "Classic 6"...only "Classic 5." The "Classic 6" only exist in your head. If you need proof that there's no such thing, just click HERE. "I've disagreed with quite of few people on this board, and you're the first one who's says I like to argue..."Well, then allow me to be the second. That's all you do is flap your gums...even when it's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about. Our "debate" on a different board -- as you characterized it in another thread -- was not a debate at all. It was simply you citing your own opinions as evidence and repeatedly changing the subject to keep the argument going. Are you sure you're not from NYC? People routinely lay out facts to halp you better understand what's being discussed, but you consistently just keep tossing out your own opinions as refutations...expecting them to be held in the same regard. That's an easy way to find yourself being ignored by other members in a big hurry. "What's wrong with sharing facts about The Tempts?"Nothing...but you need to first show some indication that you understand the difference between FACTS and YOUR OWN OPINIONS. Thus far, that hasn't happened. "Anyway those songs that I mentioned are from the classic era, like it or not.That's your opinion that those songs aren't from the classic era, that's not a fact. And the classic 6 means that they are six members from the classic period, I thought that was pretty clear, I guess it wasn't."What's "clear" is that you will argue for no other reason than to get the last word in.
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Post by surfacethrills on Feb 6, 2006 10:01:02 GMT -5
It took a bitter court battle to hammer out the agreement over the use of the Temptations' name. As for that, Edwards said, "It's just a matter of words. The real guys are gone."
It seems that these 2 sentences are the most contentious. Let’s examine why.
The first sentence deals with the legal things that went down between O and Dennis. Many people believe that O shouldn’t have made an issue over Dennis’ use of the Temptations name because of his importance to the group. If there are any attorneys out there, please correct me if I got this wrong, but I’ve spoken with a lawyer, and the way I understand it, if someone has exclusive use/title to a trademark, and they knowingly allow someone to infringe on it, that exclusivity can become null and void. However, they can maintain said exclusivity if a legal/contractual agreement is made between the trademark holder/user and the other party that wishes to it.
In this case, since O had exclusive use of the name “Temptations”, if he allowed Dennis to violate this and did nothing, it’s possible the door would have opened to anyone to use the name “Temptations”. For example, 4 friends and I could go around calling ourselves “The Temptations” and there’d be nothing anyone could do about it. Granted the legal battle may have acrimonious, but I think it ultimately resolved things so that we know who “The Temptations” are, and who Dennis’ group is. It also allows Dennis the ability to deservedly trade off his past association with the group. All in all, I’d say pretty fair.
The second sentence contains the quote "It's just a matter of words." I love Dennis, but I’m gonna call him on this. His being dismissive and saying “It's just a matter of words” is disingenuous. People don’t have “bitter” court battles for just words. “Temptations” are powerful words within the industry. In show business, “Temptations” means “Professional”, “Reliable”, and “Butts in the seats”. Dennis is at a stage in his career where he needs booking agents/venues to view him as all these things if he’s to work consistently. “Temptations” gives him that.
“The real guys are gone" makes a case for something that transcends The Temptations. It demonstrates just how powerful words are. I truly believe when Dennis said “real guys” he meant “Paul, David, Eddie and Melvin are dead, leaving just Otis and I from the Hall of Fame inducted members.” If he’d have said that, there’d be no discussion/argument of this point as it’s incontrovertible fact. However, by saying “real”, he inadvertently enflamed the passions of those who have specific criteria as to who’s a real “Temptation”, and those who feel anyone ever in the organization is/was a “Temptation”. He said “Real” for brevity, but brevity is not conducive to clarity, and it can be subjective.
The point is, when making public statements; one should use words cautiously. It’s best one keep in mind the message one's trying to send, as well as how what’s said can be interpreted. That’s true of Dennis Edwards, The President of the United States or even those posting on this board.
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Post by kalisa2 on Feb 6, 2006 10:55:52 GMT -5
It took a bitter court battle to hammer out the agreement over the use of the Temptations' name. As for that, Edwards said, "It's just a matter of words. The real guys are gone."It seems that these 2 sentences are the most contentious. Let’s examine why. The first sentence deals with the legal things that went down between O and Dennis. Many people believe that O shouldn’t have made an issue over Dennis’ use of the Temptations name because of his importance to the group. If there are any attorneys out there, please correct me if I got this wrong, but I’ve spoken with a lawyer, and the way I understand it, if someone has exclusive use/title to a trademark, and they knowingly allow someone to infringe on it, that exclusivity can become null and void. However, they can maintain said exclusivity if a legal/contractual agreement is made between the trademark holder/user and the other party that wishes to it. In this case, since O had exclusive use of the name “Temptations”, if he allowed Dennis to violate this and did nothing, it’s possible the door would have opened to anyone to use the name “Temptations”. For example, 4 friends and I could go around calling ourselves “The Temptations” and there’d be nothing anyone could do about it. Granted the legal battle may have acrimonious, but I think it ultimately resolved things so that we know who “The Temptations” are, and who Dennis’ group is. It also allows Dennis the ability to deservedly trade off his past association with the group. All in all, I’d say pretty fair. The second sentence contains the quote "It's just a matter of words." I love Dennis, but I’m gonna call him on this. His being dismissive and saying “It's just a matter of words” is disingenuous. People don’t have “bitter” court battles for just words. “Temptations” are powerful words within the industry. In show business, “Temptations” means “Professional”, “Reliable”, and “Butts in the seats”. Dennis is at a stage in his career where he needs booking agents/venues to view him as all these things if he’s to work consistently. “Temptations” gives him that. “The real guys are gone" makes a case for something that transcends The Temptations. It demonstrates just how powerful words are. I truly believe when Dennis said “real guys” he meant “Paul, David, Eddie and Melvin are dead, leaving just Otis and I from the Hall of Fame inducted members.” If he’d have said that, there’d be no discussion/argument of this point as it’s incontrovertible fact. However, by saying “real”, he inadvertently enflamed the passions of those who have specific criteria as to who’s a real “Temptation”, and those who feel anyone ever in the organization is/was a “Temptation”. He said “Real” for brevity, but brevity is not conducive to clarity, and it can be subjective. The point is, when making public statements; one should use words cautiously. It’s best one keep in mind the message one's trying to send, as well as how what’s said can be interpreted. That’s true of Dennis Edwards, The President of the United States or even those posting on this board. Excellent analysis, as always, SThrills. Fortunately or unfortunately, when Dennis did go to college/higher learning, he studied music not English or Public Speaking or Speech Writing 101. He just talks, and loves to talk. His statement here about "The real guys are gone" corresponds to another statement he made that "both groups are actually reviews (not capitalized), since that is what they do... review the body of work that the Classic5/HOF 6 made famous... I agree with him there. There are of course two camps... those who feel that having been in the Original group (and the big PLUS of having exclusive rights to the name) and finding talented singers to dub "I now pronouce thee a Temptation" makes any of the myriad replacements as good as/better than anybody else out there who sings Temptations songs. Then there is the camp who feels that the voice that led to their first grammy and held their heads above water in the changing musical times (YES, I mean Dennis) makes him as "real" as any legal document or legality. Apparently never the twain shall meet. (I'm in the middle somewhere  . I enjoy them all and wish them all the BEST of success.) And THANK you for explaining the need to assert one's exclusive rights in order to maintain the exclusivity. I don't think most of us were really aware of or gave much thought to that, and pretty much thought Otis was just being "mean" or trying to stop former Tempts from making a living by associating with a name they helped establish in concrete as The BEST of the BEST. Or that he was jealous and/or vindictive, and/or worried about the competition. I've seen many of the various ideas expressed, but your explanation makes the most sense of all. (I wish I knew more of the details of contracts signed when various members left the group. We know, for instance, that on her departure Florence Ballard was contracturally specifically prohibited from billing herself as "Former Supreme" or any mention of her association with the group she helped create, nevermind NAMED her own self.... I can't help wonder if the same held true for various Temptations when they departed the group). |
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Post by Weak4Weeks on Feb 6, 2006 12:09:58 GMT -5
I must say you both have made excellent points. However there is ONE statement, that I MUST disagree with. And that is, that both groups are reviews....NOPE  (you KNEW it was coming) I say this because the current lineup DOES sing songs that THEY were there to record. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. (Joe, Terry, G.C., Ron, and O) They are still making NEW music, under The Temptations name. As opposed to Dennis being the only {voice} in the review. And they (the Review) even sing songs DENNIS wasn't even on.  (Lady Soul, STAY, etc.) They are REVIEWING the Temptations music. The Temptations, are singing their HUGE collection of hits. Also the "I dub thee, Temptation" comment, well, pretty much, the way I see it. It's the same group that's been there from the beginning, no matter how many lineup changes. Point in case: Papa was a Rolling Stone? As much as I love, {David}, {Eddie} and {Paulie} None of their voices were featured on that song, and it is to this day the Tempts hugest song ever. Even without them, the Tempts carried on to HUGE sucess. Damon, (and) Richard these REPLACEMENTS {as you call them} They are Temptations in my opinion and have every right to the name while they are in the group. After they leave for various reasons.....HELL NO, they shouldn't be able to call themselves the Tempts. It's just that simple. I like what you said about the name Surface Thrills, I don't think O was doing it to be mean, and I DEFINITELY don't think he was doing it cause he was "afraid of the competition" , being that their is room for both groups, (as long as they're advertised right) |
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Post by kalisa2 on Feb 6, 2006 12:24:31 GMT -5
As I said.... Never the Twain shall Meet. Which song/songs might those be? I rest my case  . re: "replacements... as I call them" ummmmm... what would YOU call any/all of the gentlemen who were inducted into The Temptations after the Original 5? ( I really hate getting into these semantic disputes where there are approved/disapproved words and every word typed is subject to linguistic scrutiny... i.e. can't say Otis-hating, Otis-bashing, now 'replacements is a no-no? These are truly conversation-stoppers. IMO.) |
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Post by Weak4Weeks on Feb 6, 2006 12:32:19 GMT -5
Of course they were replacements, but they are still Temptations. IMO. You know, not TEMPT-IMITATIONS as they've been called by people with lower brain capacity. You can say replacements all you want. Hell, David Ruffin was a replacement.
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Post by kalisa2 on Feb 6, 2006 13:32:17 GMT -5
Of course they were replacements, but they are still Temptations. IMO. You know, not TEMPT-IMITATIONS as they've been called by people with lower brain capacity. You can say replacements all you want. Hell, David Ruffin was a replacement. Exactly. And I have never... not ever... disrespected any of the new line up nor any of the 'tweeners nor any of the Classic 5 by calling them Tempt-Imitations. Nor have *I* disrespected the currently group of Temptations by labelling anyone who was never a part of that group "A Temptation". So don't get squirrelly on me . Got enough squirrels falling out of nut-trees already. |
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Post by Weak4Weeks on Feb 6, 2006 14:05:31 GMT -5
LMAO! I can't stand when squirrels fall out of their nut tree, cause somebody says something about "their man" they don't like. Say what you want about T, but be ready for me to disagree, but I aint fallling out of NO TREE....HAHAHAHAHA!
Okay, back to your regularly scheduled discussion...
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Post by kalisa2 on Feb 6, 2006 14:15:36 GMT -5
Say what you want about T, but be ready for me to disagree, Can I say that I WISH Terry were as prominently featured onstage in concert as he has been on the last two CD's? Can I say that.. huh?  . |
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Post by Weak4Weeks on Feb 6, 2006 14:30:10 GMT -5
Oh yeah, you sure can...look here lady. LOL! I MEANT to say say whatever you want, but be ready for me to disagree, IF DON'T AGREE. Now that I do agree with...
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Post by surfacethrills on Feb 6, 2006 15:09:33 GMT -5
You guys are FUNNY!LOL!
Back to the discussion.... I’m one of those people who view anyone who's ever been/or currently is in "The Temptations" a Temptation. I also fully support the guys who leave in their post group endeavors. I've bought records by Damon Harris, Impact, Dennis, David & Eddie. I’ve got solo CD's by Bo, Ali, Dennis and the Review. I've paid to see The Review, Richard & Bo and Harry in concert, and I'll gladly go see any other ex-Tempts if I'm able. But notice I said ex-Tempts, for there has been, and continues to be, only one organization that can accurately be labeled “The Temptations”.
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Post by Weak4Weeks on Feb 6, 2006 15:15:58 GMT -5
You guys are FUNNY!LOL! Back to the discussion.... I’m one of those people who view anyone who's ever been/or currently is in "The Temptations" a Temptation. I also fully support the guys who leave in their post group endeavors. I've bought records by Damon Harris, Impact, Dennis, David & Eddie. I’ve got solo CD's by Bo, Ali, Dennis and the Review. I've paid to see The Review, Richard & Bo and Harry in concert, and I'll gladly go see any other ex-Tempts if I'm able. But notice I said ex-Tempts, for there has been, and continues to be, only one organization that can accurately be labeled “The Temptations”. I agree with every syllable of this post. I am starting to notice a pattern... ;D surface says....weaky agrees, surface says....weaky (you get the point)  |
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Post by surfacethrills on Feb 6, 2006 16:02:17 GMT -5
You guys are FUNNY!LOL! Back to the discussion.... I’m one of those people who view anyone who's ever been/or currently is in "The Temptations" a Temptation. I also fully support the guys who leave in their post group endeavors. I've bought records by Damon Harris, Impact, Dennis, David & Eddie. I’ve got solo CD's by Bo, Ali, Dennis and the Review. I've paid to see The Review, Richard & Bo and Harry in concert, and I'll gladly go see any other ex-Tempts if I'm able. But notice I said ex-Tempts, for there has been, and continues to be, only one organization that can accurately be labeled “The Temptations”. I agree with every syllable of this post. I am starting to notice a pattern... ;D surface says....weaky agrees, surface says....weaky (you get the point) Great minds think alike!!! |
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Post by sweetpea on Feb 6, 2006 20:47:53 GMT -5
K-2 THE LEAD SINGER DOESN'T HAVE TO DO A WHOLE LOT OF DANCING, AND IF TERRY WAS TO BE OUT FRONT SINGING MORE THEN IT WOULD TAKE AWAY FROM HIS AND JOE FANCY FOOT WORK. AS IT IS EVERY WOMAN IN THE AUDIENCE WISHES SHE WERE GINGER AND HE WERE FRED DON'T YOU AGREE ? TERRY AND JOE CAN PROJECT A WHOLE LOT OF SENSUALITY THEY DON'T NEED TO SING AT ALL ONLY KEEP ON MOVING ,KEEP ON SMILING AND LET THE WOMEN DREAM.
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Post by Weak4Weeks on Feb 6, 2006 22:15:31 GMT -5
K-2 THE LEAD SINGER DOESN'T HAVE TO DO A WHOLE LOT OF DANCING, AND IF TERRY WAS TO BE OUT FRONT SINGING MORE THEN IT WOULD TAKE AWAY FROM HIS AND JOE FANCY FOOT WORK. AS IT IS EVERY WOMAN IN THE AUDIENCE WISHES SHE WERE GINGER AND HE WERE FRED DON'T YOU AGREE ? TERRY AND JOE CAN PROJECT A WHOLE LOT OF SENSUALITY THEY DON'T NEED TO SING AT ALL ONLY KEEP ON MOVING ,KEEP ON SMILING AND LET THE WOMEN DREAM. I am sorry, but I have to disagree with this....I wanna hear my baby SANG! I love to see him dance, and he sings the hell out of the leads he has now, to take nothing from GC, but I wanna hear Terry too. I think he does an amazing job on Since I lost My baby! Don't you? |
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. I enjoy them all and wish them all the BEST of success.)
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